11 Replies Latest reply: Jul 22, 2009 6:39 AM by Franck Baron RSS

    Wiki markup gone: why?

    mbrauer

      Hello,

       

      I have recently been trying to put together a wiki for my department, and have found that the version of Clearspace we're using no longer supports wiki markup tags. On a real wiki, I might be writing content and type a term that I think will need further explication. I'd bracket it so: [[new term]], to indicate that there ought to someday be a page for the term. Then at a later time I, or another user, can fill in that page.

       

      With Clearspace I have to:

      1. save the current page;

      2. navigate up to the wiki front page;

      3. choose 'create new page';

      4. add some fake content;

      5. save the new page;

      6. navigate back to editing the original page;

      7. insert alink to the newly created (blank) page.

       

      Does anyone see how this can disrupt the flow of writing? The process is painful enough that I'm seriously look for alternatives.

       

      My question is: why have a "wiki" that ignores the standards that wiki users have developed over the last decade or so? (Also, how is this really a wiki rather than simply a web page that is editable by multiple people?)

        • Re: Wiki markup gone: why?
          Franck Baron

          Same comment, I am still not clear if Jive SBS has a wiki or not and what standards it respects and does not.

           

          We have been using dokuwiki for a while, and fully appreciate the new discussion and life brought by Jive, but that's costing us in terms of wiki-capabilitiies. Would someone be so kind to explain if and what is available for SBS 3.0.4, and answer those few questions:

           

          • We found a Spaces > Settings > Wiki Syntax Filter setting but that's disabled on my instance. but, contrary to other settings the checkbox is diabled, so I can't put it On. Why would that be?
          • There's  a JIRA filter, meaning the ability to quickly include a reference to a Jira instance with a project name and issue number
            • Is there a more standard Interwiki capability somewhere where anyone could define a URL prefix, like [[bug>12345]], in place of  https://somebugtrackerurl?bug=12345 ?
            • This interwiki capability, whcih makes sure all links are relative and configurable (e.g. if one changes bugtracking to another url or system?) is surely missed

           

          • Are [[sometext]] syntax at all supported?

           

          Thanks for some clarification,

           

          Franck

          • Re: Wiki markup gone: why?

            Hi,

             

            Great question regarding the inline link-to-non-existant-document functionality. Right now that syntax is not supported, but we do have a feature request (CS-9671) to look at simplifying the workflow to be much closer to what you desire.

            We found a Spaces > Settings > Wiki Syntax Filter setting but that's disabled on my instance. but, contrary to other settings the checkbox is diabled, so I can't put it On. Why would that be?

            The Wiki Syntax Filter is a legacy filter that remains in the current version temporarily. It is not intended to be used any longer, hence the inability to enable it.

            There's  a JIRA filter, meaning the ability to quickly include a reference to a Jira instance with a project name and issue number

            I'm guessing that you mean this filter: JIRA Plugin. Since it is open source it could be possible to modify it to support your desired syntax.


            I hope that helps,

            Greg

              • Re: Wiki markup gone: why?
                mbrauer

                Greg,

                 

                Thanks for your response. Any idea on the timeframe for a decision on this feature? I need to put together a departmental wiki pretty much right now, but if I only have to wait a few weeks for something that makes Clearspace work for me, I could do so. (If it's going to be more like months I need to know now so that I can set up something else.)

                 

                -Matt

                 

                ETA: Where do I go to find out the progress of particular feature requests (such as CS-9671)?

                  • Re: Wiki markup gone: why?

                    Hi Matt,

                     

                    This request is not scheduled for a release, so it will be more than a few weeks before it is decided whether to work on the feature.

                     

                    To track the request, create a case and ask the Support team to associate the id with the case. Then it will show up for you.

                     

                    Thanks,
                    Greg

                  • Re: Wiki markup gone: why?
                    Franck Baron

                    Hi Greg,

                     

                    Thanks for those clarifications. It does help a lot

                     

                    I am disappointed about this drop of wiki syntax for Jive, I would have thought it could co-exist happily with HTML. Even without Markup<>HTML conversions, with some docs stored in markup and others in raw html. It is a bit odd for an innovative company like Jive to go backwards on existing functionality and capabilities existing for years. I can appreciate it is not a priority, but removing it altogether feels wrong. As written below, the RTE & wysizyg is great to get people started to contribute... except the more they use the product, the more they will find themselves limited, frustrated by the lack of control, accuracy, productivity of what they can produce and will end up spending time on html formatting issues. That's a non-issue in discussions (Jive core feature)... not so much for actual documents.

                     

                    Regarding the Jira plugin, I was asking if someone had done an interwiki plugin on Jive already. That's just too brilliant  for weak integration between systems (e.g. our CRM and Jive), and we will do it if there's some guidance somewhere and how to contribute.

                    • Is there a community of contributors (plugins and filters developers)?
                    • Is there a page/space with a step by step guide to the "open-source" part of the Jive?
                    • What can be done?
                    • How should it be developed and built?
                    • How to deploy it (while making sure it will not disappear at the next patch)?

                     

                    Thanks

                     

                    Franck

                      • Re: Wiki markup gone: why?

                        Hi Franck,

                         

                        Thanks for the detailed response, I appreciate it. Again, I'm sorry for the move around wiki syntax. We spent a considerable amount of time working out the markup<>HTML conversions but were never able to deliver the functionality at the quality level we wanted to have. I completely understand your points, and we're endeavoring the carefully enable even more powerful capabilities in the rich text environment.

                         

                        Regarding plug-in development, it would be fantastic to see a contributed plugin like the one you describe. There are several resources available for you:

                        Plugin Developer - developer community with links to documentation on APIs and development

                        Plugin Downloads - the plugin download directory

                        How to use the Jivespace Plugin Directory - FAQ on contributing to the plugin directory

                         

                        I hope that helps. Let us know if you have any questions.

                         

                        Thanks,

                        Greg

                    • Re: Wiki markup gone: why?
                      Kevin Crossman

                      IMHO, Jive should not be literally considered a wiki in the official sense, in that it does not support the kind of wiki-specific features such as the link to a blank topic. That feature in particular can be confusing to casual authors, so I don't view the lack of it as big hit to Jive.  I think Jive wonderfully supports what most uses actually do when they think of a "wiki" - easily updated web page where people can collaborate on editing the content. In this respect the product holds up quite well.

                       

                      Also, thanks for the clarification about the wiki syntax filter.

                        • Re: Wiki markup gone: why?
                          mbrauer

                          Thanks, crossman, that's very helpful.

                           

                          Unfortunately for me, my company's IT department has sold Clearspace precisely as a wiki "in the official sense", and their support for other options has dropped off. Part of the reason for this confusion has to be that wiki markup was included in the previous version. It was only when we upgraded that we lost that functionality.

                           

                          As to the contention that casual users are confused by wiki markup language, I am sure that you are absolutely correct. However it's not the casual users that provide the bulk of the content for a wiki. (Wikis are interesting that way: most users don't contribute anything, and a very few users contribute almost everything.) In this instance, designing a dumbed-down yet difficult and inflexible interface will only serve to drive away the people who might have been supplying serious content.

                           

                          -Matt

                            • Re: Wiki markup gone: why?
                              dominicl

                              mbrauer wrote:

                               

                              As to the contention that casual users are confused by wiki markup language, I am sure that you are absolutely correct. However it's not the casual users that provide the bulk of the content for a wiki. (Wikis are interesting that way: most users don't contribute anything, and a very few users contribute almost everything.) In this instance, designing a dumbed-down yet difficult and inflexible interface will only serve to drive away the people who might have been supplying serious content.

                               

                              -Matt

                               

                              Hi Matt,

                               

                              This is exactly the kind of problem we have.  The new RTE is okay for new users, but experience users are significantly hampered by the RTE and it is the experienced users who we rely on for providing both the greatest quantity and quality content.

                               

                              RTE in 2.5 is too slow for power users

                               

                              I think really the biggest issue has been that with the various UI bugs in the home-grown RTE are what really slows users down.  Issues like the cursor jumping around when editing tables, images showing up malformed, those kinds of things which we've seen reported or tried to report ourselves as bugs.  As those bugs get cleared up, the user experience should get closer to using a word processor which seems to be what Jive is heading for and would certainly be an acceptable standard ... I just hope progress isn't too long and painful before the RTE gets there.  So keep reporting them bugs and feature requests!

                               

                               

                               

                              - Dominic