63 Replies Latest reply on Dec 1, 2011 6:21 AM by tmaurer Branched to a new case.

    Opinions on 4.5.7?

    jcrump

      Hi,

      We're on SBS 4.0.14 and we'd like to upgrade to 4.5.x before going to Jive 5. (Jive 5 will have to wait until after our leadership conference in January.) This is a little off topic for this space, but since community managers are closely involved with how the software actually works, I thought I'd give it a shot. I'll be happy to move or delete the discussion if it is inappropriate.

       

      Our experience has been that each iteration (e.g., 4.5.6 vs 4.5.7) introduces new wrinkles and requires a full testing regime. Release notes (https://community.jivesoftware.com/docs/DOC-48574) can be helpful to guide testing, of course, but I'm hoping to streamline things a bit...

       

      Has anyone encountered serious problems with 4.5.7 that impact the user experience? Have you been able to get workarounds?

       

      Has anyone tested 4.5.7 and decided *not* to upgrade from your version of 4.5.x? If so, which version did you decide to stick with?

       

      Many thanks,

      Jeff

        • Opinions on 4.5.7?
          tmaurer

          I won't judge the seriousness, but will tell you what we've found:

          1. If your users are heavily invested in Categories, you'll want to note that they don't actually work in 4.5.7. You can create, apply, display in a widget. But clicking the link in the widget doesn't work properly for any of the containers.
          2. Images don't display in Discussion replies or in formatted text widgets. Jive is working hard on this one and hopes to have a fix from 4.5.8 back-ported for us by the end of this week. But this does affect previously created Formatted Text widgets.
          1 person found this helpful
            • Re: Opinions on 4.5.7?
              jcrump

              Tracy Maurer wrote:

              1. If your users are heavily invested in Categories, you'll want to note that they don't actually work in 4.5.7. You can create, apply, display in a widget. But clicking the link in the widget doesn't work properly for any of the containers.

               

              Although not used in many of our spaces, those that do use categories need this to work. Categories were how we convinced them not to create massive hierarchies of subspaces.

               

              Does the "Filter by categories & tags" option still work? If so, I wonder if we might be able to just display this open by default as a workaround for those teams that need categories. (Not that I know how to do that.:))

               

              2. Images don't display in Discussion replies or in formatted text widgets. Jive is working hard on this one and hopes to have a fix from 4.5.8 back-ported for us by the end of this week. But this does affect previously created Formatted Text widgets.

               

              Can you please post when/if Jive manages to provide the fix to you? We'll need to ask for the same thing should they not include the fix in 4.5.7.1.

               

              Many thanks!

              Jeff

                • Re: Opinions on 4.5.7?
                  tmaurer

                  Categories work on the individual tabs with containers:

                  • Since there is no "All content" tab in projects/groups, this means there is no way to filter all content at once.
                  • The Filters don't work at all in the Recent Content widgets for any container
                  • The categories still show as links, but when clicked nothing happens, leaving the user to wonder if they missed clicking the right thing.
                    • Re: Opinions on 4.5.7?
                      crossman
                      • The Filters don't work at all in the Recent Content widgets for any container

                      This seems to be working for us.

                       

                      • The categories still show as links, but when clicked nothing happens, leaving the user to wonder if they missed clicking the right thing.

                      If the category widget is placed in a narrow column (such as shown below) then it does work as expected.

                      category-widget.png

                      • Re: Opinions on 4.5.7?
                        tmaurer

                        Please note that the "bug" we were seeing with Categories turned out to be a system property setting that support had implemented on our system to fix another bug in an earlier release. That bug is now fixed, so they removed the system property and now with the one exception that Kevin notes, Categories work for us again.

                         

                        Sorry for the "false" lead, but it took quite a while for it to be diagnosed.,

                      • Re: Opinions on 4.5.7?
                        jberlin

                        +1 on this comment:

                         

                        Categories were how we convinced them not to create massive hierarchies of

                        subspaces.

                         

                         

                        On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 1:58 PM, Jeff Crump <

                      • Re: Opinions on 4.5.7?
                        nilsbolsen

                        Hey Tracy,

                         

                        do you have JIRA issue IDs and / or threads discussing the two problems "formatted text widgets" and "categories" with jive? We would like to track the progress of these issues.

                        We will stop the update to 4.5.7, now, since our users will not accept these bugs.

                         

                        Thanks,

                        Nils

                        • Re: Opinions on 4.5.7?
                          DGarber

                          Wow.  That's bad.    We're on 4.5.6 so think we'll stay put.

                          • Re: Opinions on 4.5.7?
                            todd.miller

                            Thank you for providing these updates. I find it amazing that these "bugs" are acceptable. When whole features do not work I find that to be an issue with QA and I am surprised that the version could go to market. We have been waiting on this version for quite awhile now as it is supposed to allow us to develop a fix for the inability to copy and paste in Internet Explorer if programmatic clipboard access is denied. It looks like we will have to wait for a 4.5.7.1 before doing so. I look forward to sharing and reading the updates in this group.

                              • Re: Opinions on 4.5.7?
                                crossman

                                I find it amazing that these "bugs" are acceptable. When whole features do not work I find that to be an issue with QA and I am surprised that the version could go to market.

                                Giving Jive a (tiny) bit of credit, I am sure they didn't release this knowing those bugs were there.

                                 

                                (and here is where we take the credit away) OTOH, it certainly indicates that Jive's QA testing could use some very serious improvements...

                                  • Re: Opinions on 4.5.7?

                                    While QA was never one of Jive’s strengths, I thought they had been making progress and getting better.  Based on what I am seeing  with the messages about 4.5.7 and the messages to fix a lot of issues from the upgrade to 5 by our internal and external communities, I am very reluctant to recommend any upgrades at this time.

                                    Mike

                                  • Re: Opinions on 4.5.7?
                                    jcrump

                                    Hi Todd,

                                    What version are you on? Is there a public support case for the cut-and-paste problem you describe above?

                                     

                                    I also have found Jive's releases to be less buggy than they used to be, especially after stopping their old three-week release schedule. I feel Jive has been improving their QA (and our experience with support has always been exemplary), but it must be hard as the software gets increasingly complex to keep up with lousy versions of IE, new versions of databases, servers, etc. I wonder if Jive's testing is programmatic or if they have staff who do manual testing.

                                     

                                    For what it's worth, I follow these general guidelines when it comes to upgrading:

                                    1. Never upgrade to a .0 or .5 version. Allow at least one or two versions to fix bugs that are identified by users.

                                    2. Never upgrade to a new version that introduces new core features. Again, allow for initial fixes.

                                    3. Test EVERYTHING step-by-step, no matter how basic it seems, in Firefox, Chrome, IE.

                                    4. Don't trust the severity ranking of bugs in the release notes. Often the S2 bugs will directly impact the user experience more so than S1.

                                    5. Don't trust the release notes to identify the most important problems.

                                     

                                    Best,
                                    Jeff

                                      • Re: Opinions on 4.5.7?
                                        tmaurer

                                        Pretty much what we've followed as well, Jeff. However some of these bugs were really difficult to see during testing. And we don't have enough staff to test EVERYTHING. Fortunately Jive was able to take care of the email issue relatively quickly. And the other problems I've been able to hold users at bay, knowing that Jive recognizes the seriousness and is working to quickly correct them as well.

                                  • Re: Opinions on 4.5.7?
                                    crossman

                                    And 4.5.7 change the "from" email address in email alerts from a system email address (e.g. jive-alerts@jiveinstance.com), and instead uses the user's email address. This causes issues with both filtering and also users receiving out of office messages when they post to the instance (because the generated alerts get sent to users who have their OOO message sent to the "from" address, in this case the user - not the Jive system).

                                     

                                    I've seen both of the bugs that Tracy mentioned.  Problem is that all these bugs a) aren't on Jive's list of issues with 4.5.7 (or weren't when we upgraded to 4.5.7) and might not be the kind of thing you test against.

                                    1 person found this helpful
                                    • Opinions on 4.5.7?
                                      tmaurer

                                      Jeff - I just found the other one that was a bother. Not a show-stopper by any means, but something it is important to be aware of before it accidentally gets you. Once it is done, there is no way to "recall" what was in the Featured Content widget, because it doesn't just remove the items from the widget, but they get unmarked.

                                      JIVE-8897 - S2  Featuring a Video removes all regular content from the 'featured content' widget

                                        • Re: Opinions on 4.5.7?
                                          jcrump

                                          Thanks! Not a show-stopper by itself, especially since we're not using the Video module yet, but any bug that a) removes something that was there before, and b) requires re-doing manual work to fix, really stops people in their tracks. We've found this often makes them distrust the software out of proportion to the bug itself. For example, SBS was a huge improvement over Clearspace (we jumped from 2.5.6 to 4.0.14), but many of our team members still thought of the site as "buggy" a year after it really wasn't buggy anymore.

                                           

                                          Hmm. The issues are adding up. Overall, though, would you say 4.5.7 is an improvement over what came before?

                                           

                                          Best,
                                          Jeff

                                            • Re: Opinions on 4.5.7?
                                              tmaurer

                                              4.5 is a HUGE improvement over 4.0. Which version of 4.5 you go to is really the question to ask. We just moved from 4.5.6 to 4.5.7, so my answer for that decision really wouldn't speak to the question you are asking.

                                              • Re: Opinions on 4.5.7?
                                                crossman

                                                Overall, though, would you say 4.5.7 is an improvement over what came before?

                                                4.5.7 fixed some bugs and added new ones. So, you could argue one way or the other.

                                                 

                                                For us, 4.5.7 was not an improvement.

                                                  • Re: Opinions on 4.5.7?
                                                    jcrump

                                                    Thanks again! I'm working on a deadline, so I think I'll be better served looking for a solid version pre-4.5.7. If you found an earlier version of 4.5 to be more stable, I'll start there... Alas, there are always pros and cons to each release, so I'll get started comparing the release notes this weekend.

                                                     

                                                    Best regards,
                                                    Jeff

                                                  • Re: Opinions on 4.5.7?
                                                    wallyrogers

                                                    Jeff,

                                                    You said, "many of our team members still thought of the site as "buggy" a year after it really wasn't buggy anymore". (I added the bolding)

                                                     

                                                    I couldn't agree more!  The damage of a buggy release is not fixed when the "fixes" are released and installed.  Folks have already come to judgement. Then they look to go elsewhere.  I have heard it over a year later from older key leaders/influencers in the organization.  We have an enterprise platform and the reputation of the platform is VERY important.  I also want you to know that we do not ask for customizations or add on modules and Jive hosts the product for us.  So with the best support SBS could possibly have, and on a very clean installation, we still face this problem.

                                                     

                                                    So, it is critical that Jive work VERY hard to keep buggy versions from getting into production. The customer/users do not forget - even years later!  And we all suffer when that happens.

                                                      • Re: Opinions on 4.5.7?

                                                        Even worse than releasing a version with bugs, is releasing a version that breaks existing core functionality.  It makes it very hard to keep and grow users, to say nothing of asking for budget to install an upgrade to fix items broken in  the last upgrade.

                                                        Mike

                                                        • Re: Opinions on 4.5.7?
                                                          crossman

                                                          So, it is critical that Jive work VERY hard to keep buggy versions from getting into production. The customer/users do not forget - even years later!  And we all suffer when that happens.

                                                          Worse is adding new bugs (or, reintroducing bugs) into a relatively mature product release. 4.5 has been out for over a year and 4.5.7 introduced some doozies. 

                                                           

                                                          My users have been fairly forgiving when we've upgrade to an "early" release. Harder to explain the new bugs that seem to come with each upgrade, however.

                                                            • Re: Opinions on 4.5.7?
                                                              nbussard

                                                              We've found 4.5.6 to be pretty stable. We haven't even upgraded to the later smaller versions, but we have had a few backports.

                                                               

                                                              In 4.5.7, we have so far found that the More link in the "Recent Content" is missing, which is big for us, because this is basically the company activity stream and it is limited to the number of posts we set by default. Also, the Ideas widgets (recent and top ideas) throw errors and cannot be set to a specific space.

                                                               

                                                              We seem to be discovering more on a daily basis, and based on the comments here, I am not too excited to push it to production. The bummer for us is that we want to install the Catalyst plug-in, which is different between 4.5.6 and 4.5.7. So we've tested the 4.5.7 version in our UAT, but we can't test the 4.5.6 version because they can't downgrade us. Is anyone else using Catalyst in 4.5.6 without issues?

                                                              • Re: Opinions on 4.5.7?
                                                                Ryan Rutan

                                                                Kevin, sometimes I just hate it when you steal a guy's thunder. =)

                                                                 

                                                                Actually, this isn't a laughing matter, but I'm glad that I wasn't the only one who had similar feedback.  When I was a customer, we used to upgrade versions relatively fast...and would take the new bugs with a  grain of salt (assuming they were minor).  With our upgrade to 5.0 we experienced bugs that I felt should have been caught in Q&A and raised that concern.  I was told that Jive acknowledged the issue, and was working on a solution.  It sounded like a canned answer, IMO, at the time.

                                                                 

                                                                Fast forward a few months, and I'm now a Jive employee.  Now I get a different perspective, and what I've seen in these past few weeks is proof of that focus on quality.  Most recently, Jive has hired a new VP of Q&A, and the largest initiative on her plate is to fix this problem, for good!  It was my intention (and still is) to introduce her to the community, and share her thoughts on her vision about how to address both short-term pains and the longer-term problem.

                                                                 

                                                                Understandably, all the information above doesn't alleviate the problems many of you are currently experiencing; however, I wanted to share it to provide some context.  At this point (mainly for my own edification), I think it makes sense to triage the issues that people are experiencing and make sure that there is a clear path to resolution. (If not already done to your satisfaction).  I see it as part of my role to be your voice inside Jive to advocate for this level of clarity.

                                                                 

                                                                In the mean time, if there is anything else you think I may be able to assist with, please let me know.  (Note:  I'm in-route back from Enterprise 2.0 today, so response may be limited until tomorrow morning). 

                                                                 

                                                                Also, please keep an eye out for our new VP of Q&A's introduction to the community .. and please give her a warm welcome. =)

                                                        • Re: Opinions on 4.5.7?
                                                          robert.brown

                                                          Jive Community Managers,

                                                           

                                                          Obviously there were some misses on our side on several items in 4.5.7 (Categories, broken images, email spam, LDAP corner case, etc)

                                                           

                                                          Jive Support has work-arounds for several of the above items and can discuss if those will be applicable to your particular situation as an interim solution.

                                                           

                                                          We're going to put together a 4.5.7.1 release as quickly as possible to correct the above misses and Brian Roddy  will be posting our game plan here by the end of the day today, including some changes we've recently made in Jive Quality Assurance to prevent this going forward.

                                                           

                                                          We apologize for any inconveniences this has caused and will work to rectify them quickly.

                                                           

                                                          Bob

                                                            • Re: Opinions on 4.5.7?
                                                              nbussard

                                                              This is great to hear, Bob. It would also be a really nice next step on Jive's part to publish an updated list of known issues. I'm guessing that people not on this thread have also experienced issues and I for one would appreciate a complete list.

                                                               

                                                              Part of the frustration comes from finding out that Jive actually knows about certain bugs but didn't tell its customers. It's only fair to expect you to update the release notes in real time as these issues are discovered.

                                                              • Re: Opinions on 4.5.7?
                                                                david.michael

                                                                Bob thanks for posting this. We were strongly encouraged by Jive support to upgrade to 4.5.7 to fix a document conversion bug (good news is that it fixed it) and that we should not worry to much about testing as it was a minor upgrade. Big mistake on our part to believe this. Clearly we needed to do a full suite of tests as a number of very critical things were broken in this release. It does make me wounder what level of regression testing Jive does when it brings out new releases?

                                                                  • Re: Opinions on 4.5.7?
                                                                    andrew.k.gold

                                                                    David,

                                                                     

                                                                    In my experience with Jive SBS I have found that it is necessary to create and perform an extensive set of Unit Test Scripts to confirm the state pre and post upgrade. We have a number of customizations with unique interactions and we have had to capture all of the details in order to take a clear snapshot of the functionality. And to nbussard's point above, it would be very helpful to have Jive publish the list of known issues.

                                                                      • Re: Opinions on 4.5.7?
                                                                        tmaurer

                                                                        Andrew - that's just the thing. We don't have a number of customizations. Our site is very vanilla. I do have a test script I run through every time we upgrade, and I did that. Some of these issues were difficult to see when not working in a production environment (the email OOM issue, for example, because why would I turn on email in UAT for someone who was out of the office). And some of them are beyond the scope of what I test, especially for a release that is supposed to only contain bug fixes. And to nbussard 's point, if there were known issues like the Categories widget, that should have been updated on the known issues list. If it had been, then shame on me for not noting it and making a different decision.

                                                                  • Re: Opinions on 4.5.7?

                                                                    Clearly there are significant regressions present in 4.5.7.    I will give some background about the issues and describe what we are doing about them. 

                                                                     

                                                                    Of the issues mentioned in this thread the following known serious regressions occurred between 4.5.6 and 4.5.7:

                                                                     

                                                                    • Email notifications are sent "From" specific user, causes unnecessary out of office auto-reply spam
                                                                    • Images not being stored on publish and possible for images to not be properly associated with the content into which they are embedded
                                                                    • Recent content widget does not filter by tags/categories when placed in a social groups or projects
                                                                    • Clicking on category name in Categories Widget should go to All Content tab

                                                                     

                                                                    Folks in this thread have also referred to a number of issues that have been in the product since 4.5 release, such as the issue with the recent content widget.    In 4.5.7 we fixed more than 400 bugs.   We put in a significant amount of time to try and burn down some of the backlog of issues that have been reported by customers over the past year and a half.     And those bugs which are not the regressions listed above are a testament to the reason we put that many fixes into a maintenance release.   As Jive has become mission critical at companies, we have to have a higher quality bar.    We did not do enough regression testing given this large number of fixes.  And major issues slipped through.

                                                                     

                                                                    Here's what we're doing about it.  First, two weeks ago, our new VP of Quality came on board to Jive.  Sarah Huang has replaced the existing quality leadership and will be focusing on these types of problems.   Sarah comes to us from Yahoo where she helped transform their testing organization to use automation to radically lower their number of regressions.   We believe she can help us do the same at Jive.

                                                                     

                                                                    Second, for the regression issues listed above, we will be releasing a hotfix called 4.5.7.1.  This will fix those issues.  It will be released on December 7th.

                                                                     

                                                                    Lastly, we are also prioritizing most of the issues mentioned in this discussion for inclusion in 4.5.8.  And we are committing to the process changes and rigor required to make sure that release does not have similar problems.   We are having internal discussion around better transparency of known issues in releases.   More to come on that.

                                                                     

                                                                    Apologies for the problems this has caused you all.   It is definitely not acceptable.

                                                                      • Re: Opinions on 4.5.7?
                                                                        nsteinmetz

                                                                        For the "view more" in Recent Activity it works well in 4.5.5 and does not exist/work in 4.5.7

                                                                         

                                                                        Otherwise, I reported as bug JIVE-10318 which is about a weird output when you stop jive-httpd service and makes some of my scripts exit...

                                                                         

                                                                        Output :

                                                                         

                                                                        service jive-httpd stop  
                                                                        Stopping jive-httpd:  
                                                                        /sbin/service: line 66:  7802 Killed                  env -i LANG="$LANG" PATH="$PATH" TERM="$TERM" "${SERVICEDIR}/${SERVICE}" ${OPTIONS}  
                                                                        
                                                                        • Re: Opinions on 4.5.7?
                                                                          jcrump

                                                                          Hi Brian,

                                                                          Thank you very much for the update. My organization has a conference coming up in January, so we're looking for the best version of 4.5.x to upgrade to now. We'll need to start testing within the week in order to upgrade by early December, so we can't wait for 4.5.7.1.

                                                                           

                                                                          Thinking of the 400 bug fixes in 4.5.7, should these be portable back to 4.5.6.3? For example, my understanding is that document conversion works well in 4.5.7. Were we to go to 4.5.6.3 now, would we be able to apply the document conversion fix?

                                                                           

                                                                          I'm not suggesting we'd ask for 400 bug fixes; but it would mitigate our risks to know we could take advantage of some of the fixes that most impact our team members.

                                                                           

                                                                          Many thanks for your insight,

                                                                          Jeff

                                                                        • Re: Opinions on 4.5.7?
                                                                          nbussard

                                                                          I've been thinking about this and discussing it with some of our account and support folks at Jive, and have a proposal to make. It seems that Jive doesn't have an easy process in place for exposing known issues to the public if they arise after the version is published. It would be nice if we could all make our cases public once we discover these bugs, but I'm sure most of you are in the same boat we are: our cases often include screen shots of our community to illustrate the problem, so we aren't able to make them public. What if we as community managers simply started a document with each new release where we could go and summarize any bugs we found for the benefit of others? We could also add the Jira case numbers for reference and whether or not there is a fix available. That would save many of us a lot of the back and forth time with Jive Support logging the case and then waiting on a response, only to find out it's a known bug. Would others participate in this effort?

                                                                          Nikki

                                                                            • Re: Opinions on 4.5.7?
                                                                              crossman

                                                                              It seems that Jive doesn't have an easy process in place for exposing known issues to the public if they arise after the version is published.

                                                                               

                                                                              I see no (good) reason for Jive not to be able to update the "known issues" documentation with additional issues that arise after release of that version. Could be as an addendum or maybe (if they really really really had to do it this way) as a separate document.

                                                                              • Re: Opinions on 4.5.7?
                                                                                tmaurer

                                                                                I think the main problem with this is that sometimes you don't know what's behind the problem. It could be a customization that you have and no one else does. It could be a combination of 2 plug-ins. Heck, sometimes its good old user error. That's why it makes more sense for Jive to post the issues after they've verified them. But maybe we could add them as comments to the known issues list, and then Jive employees could move them into the original once they've been verified?

                                                                              • Re: Opinions on 4.5.7?
                                                                                robert.brown

                                                                                Sorry for the delayed response here as I wasn't able to gather the appropriate stakeholders until late in the day pst. 

                                                                                 

                                                                                Nicole, appreciate the offer but Kevin is exactly right.  You shouldn't have to do our job for us.  We have been planning on something like this for the last month or so and discussing the best way to handle this.  With this conversation and Ryan on board this is a perfect accelerator

                                                                                 

                                                                                I will work with Ryan tomorrow to get this rolling and he will lead the implementation of this. I will leave it in his capable hands as to the design and details but what we have discussed involves some of the following:

                                                                                 

                                                                                • Posting new bugs found for each supported release every week
                                                                                • Allowing customers an area to collaborate on particular releases
                                                                                • Sharing as early as possible when a release scope if finalized which bugs we intend to fix
                                                                                • Get your ideas and input on what you all think would work best design and process wise for this effort

                                                                                 

                                                                                To answer one of the suggestions above w/r/t allowing customers access to Jive's Jira instance.  This is NOT going to happen.  We have customer information in that application and opening it up would create potential liabilities for Jive.  We will figure out how to get the pertinent information out of it to share but will not be providing customer access.