33 Replies Latest reply on May 24, 2016 11:55 AM by Sandra Flanagan

    Text editor - Formatting not so friendly

      I have been working in the text editor for quite some time and have some issues with it.     I often lose formatting after I make a table all nice and neat or paste something from another location (Word/Notepad)

       

      I've even tried working via the HTML but telling my peers on social network to do that is just ridiculous.   

       

      Why is this?   Is there a way to not be tied to the Jive text editor options?    It seems like one wrong key or paste, your document is in shambles and it's back to the drawing board.

       

      I would love to hear what others are doing.


      Thanks,
      Luke

        • Re: Text editor - Formatting not so friendly

          Hi Luke,

           

          We have an issue open for this (CS-22401). It's been a tricky one to pin down. Unfortunately none of the web-based rich text editors are as seamless an experience as we'd like.

           

          One thing worth trying as a work-around is hitting "save and continue." Sometimes the formatting disappears from the text editor view but is not actually lost, in which case this tends to restore it.

           

          Olivia

          • Re: Text editor - Formatting not so friendly

            I agree with Luke hundred percent. Even copying content from an existing Wiki page and pasting it on a new one completely messes up the formatting. Majority of our power users have gone back to uploading word documents directly to the site rather than creating the wiki style documents.

            • Re: Text editor - Formatting not so friendly

              As long as things stay very simple, the editor is okay. As soon as things get at all complicated, the editor gets to be very frustrating.

               

              Our power users used to rely on the wiki syntax, but that's no longer an option since we upgraded to SBS 4. A number of them are very vocal about their dislike of the editor and the lack of wiki text.

               

              Unfortunately, they don't like the HTML editor either. The complaints I've heard for it are:

              • HTML is much more combersome to write by hand than wiki text
              • SBS alters the source as you switch between the RTE and HTML, and when you save.
              • The editor occasionally removes all whitespace while you're editing.

               

              I would love to see Jive really work on improving the editor.

                • Re: Text editor - Formatting not so friendly
                  mperry

                  We see this problem too. It hurts when useful formatting, such as hyperlinked items in a table of contents, is lost after content has been pasted into the text editor.

                    • Re: Text editor - Formatting not so friendly
                      AmandaS

                      I'm adding my two cents in the hopes that this gets more attention from the activity.

                       

                      We are going through adoption all over again as our company was recently acquired.  It's great that our new company sees the value of our Jive implementation and wants to keep it and grow the use cases for it.  But, I am having to re-address a lot of the same issues our initial users faced 3 years ago.  The RTE is better than 3 years ago but still really in need of some stability - especially on formatting as others noted above.  Just today there was another long thread from someone about how their experiences with the editor are making them question the feasibility of moving their collaboration work into the system.  Drupal, the Daisy CMS, and Sharepoint are all systems that are in use at our company and that essentially compete for growth.  The RTE tends to be one of the highest priority features for users - and it becomes more important to them after they use the system for a while.  In the beginning they don't usually realize how important it's going to be.

                      1 person found this helpful
                        • Re: Text editor - Formatting not so friendly
                          tmaurer

                          Hi Amanda,

                           

                          The advice I've been given is to log specific examples of problems as cases in your support area. That way they can be investigated and fixes implemented. I know that is tedious, but it does seem to have worked to some extent when there are very specific items that Jive can work to address.

                            • Re: Text editor - Formatting not so friendly

                              I'd like to echo that advice. We have been making constant fixes to and improvements in the RTE, but it's still far from where we'd like it to be. We are continuing to invest here and we do address known issue. Any specifics you can share help us track them down.

                              1 person found this helpful
                                • Re: Text editor - Formatting not so friendly
                                  AmandaS

                                  Thanks.  We will start doing more of that.  It’s true we hadn’t logged a lot of issues on the RTE because we’d heard it was improved a lot after 2.5 and we had not yet scheduled our upgrade.  What I am reading and seeing now is that the 4.5 RTE still has many formatting issues and we will still be trying to manage those things with our users and keep it from impacting adoption too heavily.    We will start logging specific things with Support.

                                   

                                  Thanks.

                                  • Re: Text editor - Formatting not so friendly

                                    Is there a way to see what suggestions have already been made?  I noticed the number CS-22401 in your first response but don't know what that corresponds to and the only thing that came back in the search was this post.   

                                     

                                    If I can see what other suggestions people have made and vote or add to them, I'll do that.   


                                    Thanks.

                                      • Re: Text editor - Formatting not so friendly
                                        tmaurer

                                        I think most of the conversation on this takes place in the Support section. As you likely know, customers have the option of making their support discussions (cases) public or not, and my guess is that many of them are not public (I know I tend to err on the side of caution and keep many/most private).

                                         

                                        If you are specifically looking for ideas that have been submitted, that would be in the idea section. Though now you've got me thinking: Olivia - can you set up categories for the Feature Discussion? Now that there are so many ideas, I think it would be a really valuable way of organizing the content for those wishing to vote or see what is already there on specific topics.

                            • Re: Text editor - Formatting not so friendly
                              On the topic of the text editor, I'd love to get your input on a topic we've been discussing here at Jive:

                               

                              1. Why and when do you use the HTML editor mode in Jive?

                               

                              2. Do you ever use the option in the >> menu to Insert Raw HTML?

                               

                              3. As long as you could still enter HTML in the Raw HTML macro (where it's rendered out on save), would you be willing to give up the full edit-the-HTML-for-anything-you-entered mode in exchange for significantly more stability and consistency?

                                • Re: Text editor - Formatting not so friendly
                                  tmaurer
                                  1. I use the HTML editor mode to fix stuff that isn't displaying correctly. I believe that Ryan Rutan had suggested a few other uses, though, so might be worthwhile picking his brain.
                                  2. TOTALLY use the insert raw HTML option! This is key to a few things we do, the main one currently being to create Picasa slideshows for mini training.
                                  3. I'd be willing to make the trade, as long as it was significantly more stability and consistency. The biggest issue I think we face here is when people copy and paste information in. If the text editor can't strip unnecessary junk and/or convert copied text properly, we do need a way to edit and fix what is broken.
                                  • Re: Text editor - Formatting not so friendly
                                    AmandaS

                                    Hi Olivia –

                                     

                                    I will post a summary of some feedback tomorrow.  I want to give more users a chance to respond to the questions I’ve posted in our community – although several jumped right on it!

                                     

                                    Initial feedback is that people rely on the HTML editor heavily but that is because of the limitations/issues with the RTE.  Several feel they could not use the system right now without the HTML editor.  I’ll post more tomorrow.

                                      • Re: Text editor - Formatting not so friendly
                                        AmandaS

                                        I have a little bit more feedback on this:

                                         

                                        • No respondents use the HTML editor to initiate documents or as their primary editor
                                        • All respondents rely on the HTML editor to fix problems that occur due to the RTE.  This primarily means stripping garbage from a copy and paste from Word or Outlook and formatting issues.

                                         

                                         

                                        Here are some comments from other users in our community that I think summarize the views of many.  Overall I think users would give up the HTML option to have a more stable RTE.  But "more stable" needs to mean it really works - no funky formatting issues etc.  There is quite a bit of fear about not being able to get under the covers to fix problems with documents.

                                         

                                        User #1 Comments:

                                        I use the HTML mode when I cannot do simple things like:

                                        • highlight and delete text
                                        • Use back-space to delete something
                                        • Make use of nested lists
                                        • Change the content of a link

                                         

                                        I have also switched to HTML mode to delete the insane amount of (& n b s p )  that get inserted.  Unfortunately, I feel as though I have more control using HTML mode than RTE.

                                         

                                        Also, note that we can't use <pre> or <code> or HTML entities to correctly render & n b s p ; without spaces.

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                        User #2 Comments:

                                        An HTML editor is by definition something that allows you to edit in a syntax aware manner, the HTML toggle mode just provides you with a plain text view of the HTML code.

                                         

                                        1. I use the HTML editor for bug fixing when documents are unworkable. And even then I need to edit using an editor that is aware of HTML syntax and gives me HTML editing capabilities. Then I copy and paste to replace the content.

                                         

                                        2. I do not use the insert raw html

                                         

                                        3. For giving up the HTML toggle: Personally, I would like to say Yes!. But no, my confidence in content maintenance in documents (complex content documents) using this product is very low, I must admit. The RTE has awful and uggly usability features and toggling to HTML mode has proved in the past to be the only solution to solve upgrade issues that resulted in documents not being editable anymore. But if you can guarantee that won't happen anymore, go ahead...

                                         

                                         

                                        Hopefully this is helpful.  I would love for people to be truly confident authoring documents from start to finish in SBS and not feel the need to work in other editors and then copy into SBS and adjust using the HTML editor.

                                          • Re: Text editor - Formatting not so friendly

                                            A bit more feedback.

                                             

                                            As the others stated, the HTML editor is used a lot here to fix problems that can't be addressed using the RTE. It is also used to do things which can't be done using the RTE.

                                             

                                            Most of our SBS users are software engineers, and they often have a strong preference for command line tools. The loss of wiki text made a lot of them very unhappy. If we then lost HTML, I expect that would make them even more unhappy although it would be an easier sell if the RTE were rock solid.

                                             

                                            I don't think any of our users use the HTML editor as their primary editor, although some them would if it were more usable. The most common complaints are:

                                            1. The editor strips all whitespace occasionally.
                                            2. The HTML is changed by SBS upon publishing or switching to the RTE. Sometimes it mangles the document in the process.

                                             

                                            I understand that it's impossible to please everyone. Maybe Jive could publish a standard for the way documents are stored so vendors could write their own editors as add-on modules.

                                             

                                            Thanks,

                                            -Graham

                                            • Re: Text editor - Formatting not so friendly

                                              Thanks Amanda! Can you refresh my memory on what version of SBS you're running? I believe we've resolved several of these issues in more recent releases, but want to confirm and make sure I focus our development efforts on the right stuff. Also, if you have browser and OS information for these users, that would be helpful too.

                                               

                                              Thanks again for the quick feedback!

                                                • Re: Text editor - Formatting not so friendly
                                                  AmandaS

                                                  Hi Olivia -

                                                   

                                                  It would be great if these are resolved.  As I stated earlier in this thread, the reason we hadn't been logging support issues on all these things is that we'd heard the RTE was being (had been) improved a lot post-2.5 and we hadn't yet scheduled our upgrade.  We've just started our upgrade from 2.5 to 4.5 and what I've been reading in the community is that there are still a lot of quirky formatting problems with the RTE.  That is what initiated my chiming in on this thread.  We've been telling our users that help was on the way and we were moving to the latest version. 

                                                   

                                                  The user comments are based on 2.5.  Their use cases for the HTML editor are primarily around fixing problems that they can't fix in the RTE (or that are caused by the RTE).

                                                   

                                                  As we get our common development environment fully deployed I'll be able to do testing with more sophisticated documents.  If you're able to reply with which issues are/should be resolved with 4.5 that would be very helpful.  I want to correctly set expectations with our community and also not report problems that have already been addressed!

                                                    • Re: Text editor - Formatting not so friendly

                                                      Thanks Amanda. I do think we've made big improvements across the board. Especially in undo/redo, eliminating cursor jumps, more consistent formatting, and a ton of bug fixes. But, there are still issues. That's exactly why we've been exploring anything and everything that could help change the equation. Unfortunately there is no RTE out there that can match the experience of a desktop editor yet, so this is a tough area in which to delight, but we know we can do better and we are working on it!

                                                       

                                                      Formatting pasted content is still the most problematic area in a number of browsers and operating systems. This problem is not unique to us and there's a reason for it (each browser has it's own widely divergent way of formatting pasted content to make content look a certain; we try hard not to change the HTML a user pastes in because of the HTML mode) but it's still not the experience we want and one we're investing significantly in further improving.

                                                       

                                                      I hope this helps. I do think your users will notice the improvements. Engineering will also review everything you've posted already to see if there are things we haven't already resolved, and please do post or open issues for anything new you find!

                                              • Re: Text editor - Formatting not so friendly
                                                crossman

                                                Our users would much rather be able to go into the HTML of the entire document than to rely solely on the "Insert HTML" functionality.  The current incarnation of that Insert HTML functionality is obscure (hidden in a drop-down menu) and not abundantly clear what it does.

                                              • Re: Text editor - Formatting not so friendly

                                                No Wikitext or CamelCase is a non-starter for us.  Sad to hear it was removed.

                                                • Re: Text editor - Formatting not so friendly
                                                  hdopenmind1213

                                                  The formatting in this software is crazy making. It creates extra work for me every day.

                                                  I have the same issues as all the others who have commented here.

                                                  Today is February 26, 2014 at 5:49pm CT.

                                                  I started using the Jive Community in November 2013

                                                  I am unaware of any improvements that have made any of this better since I started using it.

                                                  I am good with writing in HTML

                                                  Jive uses some crazy version of HTML

                                                  Flash is not an option for people who are trying to make mobile viewing work right on tablets and phones...

                                                  • Re: Text editor - Formatting not so friendly
                                                    Sandra Flanagan

                                                    I would love it it there was a format painter in the text editor, because it would save me a lot of time. I wasn't aware that the formatting issue was browser specific, and it's interesting to hear of the problems others are having, as well as the progress Jive had made with its text editor.